Initiations – what are they good for?


JUST EDITED – lost a couple of paragraphs in the ol’ cut and paste. 11/11/10, 12:04pm.

Recently there has been another one of these very interesting ‘separate forum’ debates characteristic of the online Golden Dawn community. For various reasons some leaders of the GD community can’t get on well enough to debate on the same forum. So one person will say something and someone else will reply elsewhere.  It fairly reminds me of the fractured conversations parents have while attending to a baby.

But there you go; we work with what we have.

The topic this time was the GD Grades and the levels of consciousness they refer to. Now I may annoy a few folk here, maybe even both ‘sides’ of the issue. Apologies in advance but this is how I see it.

On the one hand Pat Zalewski, who has done as much for the Golden Dawn as any contemporary person could, wrote on ‘his’ forum that the exalted spiritual/moral states ascribed by some people to the higher grades, such as 7=4, are rarely achieved, so why ascribe them in the first place?  On the other hand, the erudite GH Fr SR maintains the 7=4 (and other grades) does help produce certain distinct changes in consciousness and spiritual development, even if those who attain the grade slip sometimes and react from the lower self.

Pat also makes the accurate observation that Mathers and Westcott and people he personally knew who were 7=4 and beyond gave in to “petty jealousy and had certainly not emancipated from the passions of the body”.

He then writes, “GD people are not a breed apart and study and ritual will not transform the basic personality” something I will come back to later. If I understand him correctly, Pat’s take on the transformative power of the GD is allows us at “varying levels … to understand our connection to things about us through analogy and symbols and to try and attain Apotheosis”. He concludes with a characteristic comment, “Whatever you may want to attain you still live in the here and now.”

Commentators to the Pat’s post point out the “system” of the GD can still be valid, that is able to transform the person, even if individuals fail to do so. The person fails, not the system.

GH Fr SR takes this a step further and points out the original GD system was rudimentary and offered limited advanced theurgic work and structures. This has all been solved now with the ‘1999 reformation of the Order curriculum’ – by this he means the particular Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha et Omega and attached Inner Orders. One of the things that always bugs me is the language most members of the Ros AO use implies that their Order is THE Order. Of course, by their lights it may be the only valid Order…kinda like Pope Benedict insisting that all non-Roman churches are really congregations or fellowships, not Churches.


These are weighty and serious questions and cut to the very raison d’être of the Golden Dawn. One of the difficulties in discussing these things is there is often limited congruence between GD folk on the meanings of all these strange esoteric words, initiation, Ruach, Apotheosis etc. One person’s astral is not necessarily another person’s astral. Of course this situation is made worse when people can’t even debate and learn from each other in the same forum.

Another major problem is the different underlying theologies, cosmologies and ontologies a person brings with them into the Order. Since we are an orthopraxic tradition we seldom insist upon, or even teach and discuss a common paradigm to the universe, seen and unseen. Our internally held views on these things make us view the GD, its purpose, capacity and function differently. I have addressed in this post, ‘Spiritual Transformation: or a whole hunk of questions’. The questions there, such as what is this ‘self’ we are trying to transform and why the hell are we doing this, really need answering before we can address the issues raised by Pat and GH Fr SR.

Now, I have a working and unfolding tension in relation to these questions – ‘cos they’ve been bouncing around my head since a teenager, so I am going to go right ahead and have a go… 🙂

To try and move this issue away from the persons of Pat and GH Fr SR, I want to examine the various opinions within the Western magical traditions concerning ceremonial initiation and the spiritual and psychological effects it may or may not have. We may summarise these opinions in several broad statements, each of which looks at initiation from a differing perspective.

1. Ceremonial initiations, when correctly performed will, without a doubt, promote a change of consciousness within the initiate. That is, a new state of consciousness, a new level of spiritual awakening will be delivered unto the initiate. With each new or subsequent initiation they will become more spiritually advanced than those who do not have those initiations.

2. Initiation is a process not a series of ceremonies and the actual initiation is through our own personal work and life circumstances. Life itself is the initiator. The ceremonies are simply a recognition of the state of consciousness already achieved as well as a booster or ‘leg-up’ towards further unfoldment within the process.

3. Ceremonial initiation, when correctly performed, offers a series of energetic keys to the initiate. If these are taken up and used by the initiate within their own personal work, they will then promote a distinct change in consciousness and spiritual advancement. Often this may involve unexpected or dramatic changes in life circumstances. When these new life circumstances are entered into fully they may provide a vehicle through which the new state of consciousness may be developed.

RR et AC Rose Cross

4. Ceremonial initiations are mostly designed to recognise work within a particular occult or magical discipline or Order. They have little or nothing to do with spiritual or moral development and are simply markers of ‘where one is at’ within a tradition.

5. Ceremonial initiations within the magical traditions are predominantly designed to promote greater magical powers or mastery of the various forces of the universe, both internally and externally. They have little to do with spiritual advancement or the mystical awareness of God and the transformation of consciousness.

Often of course the same lodge or magical group will hold one or more of these views simultaneously. For example, the way the members of the original Golden Dawn viewed its initiatory schema appears to have elements of all five perspectives. The ceremonies were designed to change the initiate’s consciousness (1). It is also clear from the commentaries upon the initiations that the initiate had to work her own process (2) and activate the keys of the ceremony within her daily life through will and surrender (3). However, it is also clear that the initiations themselves, regardless of the spiritual unfoldment or magical attainment of the individual, were used as pre-requisites to hold certain offices within an Temple (4). And there is certainly plenty of evidence that while the initiations increase an individual’s capacity for magic, they may not promote an expansion of consciousness towards a mystical awareness of God and indeed, initiates could still be utter bastards, personally (5).

Pat seems to focus on (2), (3) and (4) – not saying he does not hold any other views, only that his comments, as I read seem to focus on these areas. GH Fr SR seems, in his recent post, to focus on (1) and (3) – again, not saying he does not hold any other views.

Personally, I do think correctly performed initiations affect us on the subtle levels. The changes induced there, can, if we will, help us to change ourselves. So here I agree with GH Fr SR. However, those changes only ever come about through our interaction with, as Pat puts it, “things about us” – through our interaction and unfoldment in this wonderful world of summer rain and tainted babies’ milk. The mystery, for example, of standing between the Pillars of the Opposites is placed within us at Neophyte. It will never come to fruition though if we, in our messy and glorious lives, do not move ourselves to a place of balance between, for example work and family commitments. The initiation does however help when we choose to do that. So I think Pat is right, “study and ritual will not transform the basic personality” alone. But it will help us along the way when we choose and act to change ourselves. So will good food and exercise and good friends though 🙂

So without, I hope being too much of a fence sitter, both Pat’s and GH Fr SR’s views are in my view correct– when they are taken together.

Pat’s comment that “study and ritual will not transform the basic personality” I feel needs a little unpacking. From my experience and within most esoteric systems the personality is not separate from the subtle selves. There is no doubt ritual affects the subtle self, even if only temporarily. Repeated instances of ritual can then help to affect the personality – if we are working towards that goal within our lives.

In the case of initiation however, the ritual is done for us, for our benefit and we receive many blessings. Using a public example, Dion Fortune recounts how her 0=0 initiation helped resolve damage to her subtle etheric self, healing her and stopping ‘energy’ leaking from her system. Now this is not a direct action upon the personality, but it would have helped her personality by reducing stress, tiredness and increasing focus etc. So here, at a very simple level we see that a ritual can affect us.

Another case: while healing ritual processes, for example, may not be able remove underlying mental pattering causing psychological dysfunction unless married with other inner work and life changes, they can temporarily help lessen the circular effects of dysfunction.  They do this by affecting the subtle bodies – in the way correct breathing during a panic attack will reduce the attack but not address the source. The temporary relief of dysfunctional symptoms can then provide the space needed for deeper psychological change. I have experienced this personally and have helped facilitate the process for others, including people heavily traumatised.

With regards to the actual level of psychological and spiritual functioning an Adept has, I focus squarely on point (4). The grades within an esoteric order hopefully helps us transform. However, they are not guaranteed to. The levels of consciousness and functioning ascribed to each grade should, I think, be viewed as metaphorical not literal. Just as Biblical and religious narratives are true but not literal, so too with the grade system. The various exalted levels are to be taken metaphorically not literally, as something that is true, but not within shared space-time.

Dalai Lama Leaving Tibet

The main reason for this ‘metaphorical’ interpretation is obvious – as soon as we ascribe noble morality, compassion, higher consciousness and wot all to a particular grade our paradigm is vulnerable to members of that grade acting like pompous, constipated two year olds. And of course Adepti Exempti do act this way. Just look on the blogs. GH Fr SR may say these things are slips, and I am sure some of the less dysfunctional actions are, but I am sure we all know the odd Adepti Exempti who we would not only not take home to mother, but actively steer away from mother.

The view that the Reformed Ros. AO  GD/RR et AC now offers better opportunities for fuller unfoldment is interesting. The proof of the pudding is in the eating of course, and I yet to meet an Adept from this Order, so cannot fully comment. However the publically available information on the theurgic and evocatory expansion within the Reformed system is very logical and is along the lines many Orders have taken, and the Adepti from those Orders I have met are just as dysfunctional as non-initiates, and sometimes worse. The Ros. AO may be doing it better, I cannot know.

All this of course, is one of the reasons why I feel it essential not to discuss our Grades. It is also, as I was taught, one of the reasons for the traditional Rosicrucian injunction to wear the garb of the country we find ourselves within – to blend in, not focus on our attainments or fictional difference between us and ‘non-initiates’. The latter view finds its disgusting apotheosis in both the traditional Gnostic separation of humanity into three distinct categories and the modern myth of the ‘once born’ non-initiates and the diogens, or twice born initiates.

There remains the question of whether an esoteric tradition can actually help to change us to an exalted state that is generally understood to be ‘more than human’. For me there is no question that it can. I never really understood the difference between regular human consciousness and, for want of a better word, an illumined consciousness until, as I describe in this post, I attended a talk by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Since then I have met and been blessedly initiated by other enlightened Vajrayana Masters. I have no doubt of their enlightened state while being perfectly human also.

Personally, I think such transformations in the western tradition are very rare, particularly in the largely dysfunctional western magical traditions, but I am sure they can happen.

Finally, I am very aware I have not mentioned the actual truth of the matter; individual transformation itself is a chimera. Since I bang on about it so much, I gave it a rest this time and will only re-quote the great Martin Luther King:

We are tied together in the single garment of destiny, caught in an inescapable network of mutuality. And whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. For some strange reason I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. And you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the way God’s universe is made; this is the way it is structured.



  1. Gryende Morgonrodnaden · November 11, 2010

    Care Fra. Peregrin,

    Thank you for doing justice to my thoughts. You have presented them fairly, as you have done with Pat’s thoughts. Regarding why me and Pat cannot meet toghether on his forum: I decided some time ago that I won’t post there anymore, as the atmosphere is quite un-fraternal (at least towards me or anyone representing the H.O.G.D./A+O). I prefer to do it this way. Also, in this way things won’t get out of hand as easily. However, Pat is welcome to comment any time directly on my blog. Whatever he writes, I will let through.

    In Licht, Leben und Liebe

  2. Arcad · November 12, 2010

    Care Fra. Peregrin,

    thanks for this very interesting analysis and putting some order into this discussion (at least from my point of view). Also for trying to promote an open unbiased discussion upon differences opinions.

    In L.V.X.

  3. Peregrin · November 12, 2010

    Care GH Fr SR,

    thank you…I do not always find it easy presenting other people’s views. Sometimes I have to assume a meaning that is not literally there. Like in Pat’s comment’s “study and ritual will not transforms the basic personality”, from the rest of the post and what I know from his published work I am assuming an important “study and ritual alone will not…” – otherwise why does Pat study and perform ritual? So I am glad I presented your views well. I have posted a link to this post on Pat and Martin’s forum and welcome his input here also.

    And without anyone thinking I am ‘taking sides’, going on to Pat’s forum (which I rarely have time to do) I saw some very unsavoury, and from what I could tell unprovoked, comments directed at you personally. I am not sure of the antecedents (if any) of these, but I understand your comment that “the atmosphere is quite un-fraternal”. This is a great shame and really does no one any good.

    Thanks 🙂

  4. Peregrin · November 12, 2010

    Thanks, Fr Arcad … 🙂

  5. Pallas Renatus · November 12, 2010

    I love that quote, and I love how often I’ve been coming across it lately. If nothing else, it gives me compassion for forum trolls 😉

  6. Brian · November 12, 2010

    I think for me, having been a member of EOGD at one time, and having read Pat’s comments on his board for years… I came to a conclusion:

    I dont think Pat believes in anything. I think Robert (of EOGD) believes in everything, but when the smoke clears, I never saw anything I wanted to be, being exemplified in any Order.

    The thing is, the GD/Thelema/Aurum Solis, doesn’t focus on resolving the ego. Without that, you have constant bickering and fighting (within orders and between them) and general bad behavior.

    In paths like Buddhism, Kabbalah, Sufism, you have a goal of stripping the Ego from the person. It may not be so obviously stated, but that’s what’s happening through their process’ of meditation and teachings.

    So I ask myself… why use the GD? What does it offer? A sense of adventure, perhaps. A feeling of community maybe. But for inward development it seems to flat line.

    In looking at Pat, David G, Robert Z… do any of these GD leaders show traits you want in your life? The Dalai Lama does… (for me) Yehuda Berg does (for me)… I left the GD because it appeared to be such a waste of time. the best i’d probably become is to be like the leader, who is filled with all the problems i want to overcome… so… why?

  7. Peregrin · November 13, 2010

    Thanks Brian for some very good points and questions.

    I have struggled with much of this myself – ever since I discovered my first teacher (thankfully of little time) was using magic to try and bed a 16 year homeless girl. I have written a fair bit on the dysfunction of the magical/GD community and I agree with much of what you say.

    Of course different people’s experience of the leaders you mention will be different. Each I am sure will show some traits I would not like in my life, and some traits I would like. For example, to me Pat has always been very helpful, honest, kind and forthcoming. I would like to develop those aspects of life.

    The distinction you make between ego-stripping paths and the GD is accurate I feel. I certainly see where you are coming from. However, the aim of the western mysteries is to focus the ego into a tool for the higher. I think, from my understanding and glimpses, and a few adepti i know, this can happen. Then the ego is essentially no longer operative on its own lights and thus functionally is the same as being stripped. Personally, I think this only happens in those western traditions and magicians which have a religious component – i.e. surrender to something larger and beyond. Ultimately for example, Christian mystic ‘isness’ is functionally the same as Buddhist ‘suchness’.

    However, as always the proof is in the pudding … tomorrow I will take teachings from my Tibetan Vajrayana teacher and a visiting high Rinpoche… their presence is something other than anyone else I know. I know there are many examples of Rinpoches falling etc, but I do think the Tibetan system, the “enlightenment engine” as Robert Thurman calls it, works more than extant western systems. But here I am – in the west and here I am in love with the Golden Dawn and with Christian mysteries… as the HH Dalai Lama advises, it is best if possible to stick with our native traditions. But it is a struggle…

    thanks again 🙂

  8. dirkt · November 13, 2010

    aye.. peregrin,
    i think brian and you bove have a point.

    i.m.o. the goal of a sane mysticism/religion is a transformation away from a deluded sense of reality and self, which is constantly suffused with destructive emotions of selfishness, greed, anger and fear onto a more adequate understanding of the nature of the self/reality (as far as this is possible for human beings), which in turn manifests itself through feeling and acting with more benevolence, compassion and equanimity, which in turn will deepen your understanding and so on.

    if this adequate understanding includes transcendent notions about the nature of reality&self, or if it is more sceptical inclined, is really of no concern as long as it is therapeutic in the sense of furthering selflessness and compassion and does not lead to religious chauvinism.

    when i strip away all the technical terminology of the Golden Dawn and simply look at the diagrams of the garden eden before & after the fall and the ones on the lid of the pastos, there is just one expression, that occurs to me: kenosis!

    transforming the practitioner into a “likeness of christ”, in the sense of surrendering his own selfishness, greed and anger to be filled with the “grace” of understanding, benevolence and compassion . “not my will, but thy will be done!”

    for me, that’s what’s at the heart of the system.

    the GD presented us with a potentially wonderfull mystical system. but it always was a work in progress, a mystical experiment, that evolved in the late 19th century and which has a great potential but was (and is) in a way limited by the limited religious, mystical and scientific perspective of it’s victorian founders.

    today, it needs to be adapted and developed along the lines of a 21st century understanding of mysticism and science and i see the various modern GD fractions kind of trying to do that in their own manner. sadly however, this adaptions seem to focus more on the development of an increasingly obscure metaphysical doctrine and ritual technique for their own sake, instead of using these as therapeutic tools to reduce selfishness and greed and thereby walking right into the trap of pop esoteric delusions, with it’s naive enthusiasm for the supernatural and to a religious chauvinism, which in turn seems to further self-importance and constant strife, fighting and infighting.

    the goal of mystical/religious practice is not “to make you more than human”, but to make you humane, and thereby human.
    if your practice doesn’t do that for you, something is seriously amiss.

  9. Gryende Morgonrodnaden · November 13, 2010

    We do not want to “kill” or “destroy” the ego, we want to “evolve” or “transmute” it.

    This is a very hard task. I wonder if the aim or methology actually is flawed in the Western Esoteric Tradition, or if all of this is a sign of lack of discipline and focus in the student (and teacher)? Are we experiencing to many distractions in our western way of life?

    In the West we are living in a very complicated situation, existential wise. We are surrounded by a secular society driven by materialism. People in general are quite confused and in a desperate search for identity and meaning with their lives. As initiates, we are torn between the mundande life (work, obligations of societey, feeding and raising children, etc.) and the spiritual (Great Work). Are we as initiates living in the west any less confused than our neighbour? Are people in the West practicing Eastern methods any less confused or more enlighted than the Western initiate?

    The hardest task is to embody our spritual life in the mundane. This creates frustration, which in turn may hinder the evolution of the soul (ego).

    I’m not saying that we should renounce the mundane; all I’m saying its a difficult task to unify the spiritual and the mundane in the post-modern society and only those who succeed may succeed with the Great Work as a whole. The Western Estoteric Path (as represented by the Golden Dawn) aims in this Alchemical Union (compare this with the union between Spirit and Body of the initiate).

    But the microcosm is a reflection of the macrocosm, and in these post-modern times the emediate macrocosm (society) is quite confused. Perhaps we should follow the lead of the old Rosicrucian brethren who according to Samuel Richter, in his 1710 thesis ‘Bereitung des PhilosophischenSteins der Brüderschaft aus dem Orden des Gülden-und Rosen-Creutzes’, left Europe for India?

    I doubt it. Besides, considering the progression of the Indian society who, like the rest of the far orient, tries to emulate the western way of life in our new and “glorius” global economy, we are likely to see the same existential difficulties in the common Indian individual as well. They are to becoming more and more secular and materialistic.

    Thus, you cannot only blame a system or its adherents. You also have to see the bigger picture and the context in which the system exists and the initiates are living.

    In Licht, Leben und Liebe

  10. dirkt · November 13, 2010

    and.. btw.. i think that the grade system ist one of the biggest obstacles in the GD system, as it also furthers self-importance, strife and contest. like the eightfold path, the tree is a whole, not a step by step aproach.

    funny, to think of a buddhist who proclaims..oh, yes. this year i’m cultivating richt speech, but next year i will be admitted to the practice of right action 😉

  11. Nick Farrell · November 13, 2010

    I am beginning to wonder if this debate opens that old chestnut I keep cracking on about the state of students today 🙂
    I think modern magic has loads of “teachers” who like Westcott and Mathers did not go through the system to get the grades they claimed. Westcott and Mathers were saved from being mocked, by the fact that students made them into Gods.
    Modern magicians who claim these high grades without doing the work often aspire to being gods themselves and copy the Mathers and Westcott models.
    In what has to be the greatest mixed blessing in occult history the tendency to make the higher grades into gods has been over turned by students who in many cases judge their teachers and find them failing mortals. This gives them an excuse to go and join another order or give up the teaching all together.
    It is a mixed blessing because the student never learns what anyone teaches.
    In the old days you were lucky if you found an occult order and if you did you persisted with the system even if you were forced to leave because of the human behaviour of your teachers.
    These days students get off the bus before it has left the station looking for reasons they usually blame teachers, or the whole system rather than themselves. Why did they sign up for such teachers anyway? And why have they personalised a system so that it becomes one person. The GD is NOT Zink, Griffin, Pat, Nick Farrell just like it was not Mathers or Westcott. My GD is different from all of the above people (the fact we actually get on is one of the more interesting aspects of modern magic).
    After while we find the same student then enthusiastically banging on about their latest spiritual path forgetting that if they had persisted with the first one they would have been closer to the goal by now. Of course they will later leave that path too claiming that it was not what they thought it was.
    The current issue is not whether or not some teacher is a 7=4 for a 10=1 the important stuff is “am I getting something out of what they are teaching?”.
    However this pointing out the weaknesses in a teacher is also a bad sign. True, it happens, but it is also an attempt by the student, to get control of the teacher. The student JUDGES the teacher and thus renders them lower than them. Since the teacher has probably got where they are by work, the student makes that work null and void.
    There are circumstances where a student CAN or should be allowed to Criticise the teacher. However a slagging off on the Internet is not normally the way.
    Anyway the Magical Order of the Aurora Aurea will go up the higher grades. However it will only happen when its current leader pulls finger and gets those grades himself. That will take some time as the current Chief is writing all the portal and 5=6 material.
    However how many people will get to see the 7=4? Not that many. Chic once told me that few people get beyond the NAM in his Order. Given that it takes about three years to do the outer order if you are going like the clappers… the drop out rate is phenomenal.
    This is why I am amused at groups who claim the are sticking all their most secret stuff in the 7=4 or 6=5 because they know that no-one will ever see it.

  12. Peregrin · November 14, 2010

    Just back from a weekend retreat -thank you everyone for these wonderful comments, it is great to have your input (and humour Dirk 🙂 – too tired to respond now, maybe tomorrow. thanks 🙂

  13. dirkt · November 15, 2010

    hope you have enjoyed your retreat, peregrin 🙂

    some more thoughts on the grade system and use of the tree:

    going through any grades, will not make you any wiser or more spiritual. if you must use grades, you can only use them to asses academical knowledge (1=10-4=7) and technical know-how (5=6 & subgrades), or to symbolize administrative duties within the order (6=5-7=4), but never to asses any actual spiritual and ethical development. crowley tried to do that in his AA and it was a failure, cause nobody could actual embodie the prescribed spiritual qualities. as with the eightfold path or the five aggregates, you cannot develop let’s say your emotional nature (netzach) for a year exclusively and then focus on the intellectual development (hod) for another year and so on. thought and emotions (and all the other mental factors, that are represented by the sephiroth and paths) are inseperable entangled and must be treated as a whole and whenever they come up in meditative practice and daily life. any distinction is just made for analytical purposes. the tree gives you a model, to better understand the cognitive process, so that you’re able to better understand how you create suffering (for yourself and others) by the unskillfull use of your consciousness and it provides you with a guideline, how to develop a more skillfull aproach and thereby avoid unnecessary suffering. but you cannot map this cognitive use of the tree 1:1 on the tree understood as grades of the order, cause it doesn’t function in a gradual fashion and it’s a lifelong ongoing process, which simply makes it impossible to determine any final accomplishment, that can be acknowledged by a grade.

    i.m.o. the initiation rituals itself are nothing more than a drama. but if they accomplish to reach the initiate on an emotional, cognitive and intuitive level, they can point him into the desired direction. and that’s what originally meant by the term. cause something to begin. in this case the beginning of spiritual and ethical development in a certain direction.

    there is no actual rift between the mundane and the spiritual. it’s all found in exactly the same place. if you can’t put you’re practice into real life, it’s worthless. integrity of mind, speech and action. thats what it’s all about. if the mind goes in one direction and speech and action into another, then heaven and earth are pulled apart and the result is suffering.

    and the ego is not a “thing” that you can simply abolish, destroy whatsoever. and nobody actually want’s to do this. doing so, will lead to a pathologic condition which will make you unfunctional in the world. what’s meant by giving up your ego, is giving up an exaggerated selfishness and the mistaken view, that the “I” is a permanent and independent entity, that will kind of last forever 😉

  14. David Griffin · December 15, 2010

    For the record, the reason why the Golden Dawn debate occurs across fora frequently boils down merely to the stubbornness of Pat Zalewski. Pat only allows his chosen few (mostly those who agree with him) to post on his forum and simply refuses to debate in an intelligent manner when it comes to divergent points of view.

    As a case in point, I recently read a rather interesting thread on Pat’s forum regarding the Golden and Rosy Cross order. As I have the entire rituals and esoteric corpus of this order in my personal archives, I found the discussion interesting and made a scholarly contribution. As expected, my post never saw the light of day on Pat’s forum.

    How does this serve the Golden Dawn community?

    Perhaps the situation will approve in the future, but in the meantime, those interested in substantial Golden Dawn discussion will sadly have to continue to scour the internet to hear all of the different points of view.

  15. Darpan Gondlir · May 28, 2012

    I guess this is the post I was looking for 🙂 . Thank you

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